My husband and I have been drinking kombucha regularly ourselves recently, so an interview on the subject was an obvious choice! I looked for an interview partner who I have known for a long time: Paul Seelhorst. He is the co-founder of Fairment, a company that brews RAW Kombucha and brings life back into your kitchen.
In the interview, we talk about, among other things:
You can listen to the episode here:
[g_podcast id="17004887"]
Julia: I'm very pleased to have a new interview guest today. We're talking to Paul Seelhorst from "Fairment" about fermentation. Welcome, Paul, and thank you for taking the time.
Paul: Hi Julia. Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm very happy to be here.
Julia: That's nice. What I would like to know first: Your name "Fairment" has the word "fair" in it. What does fairness mean to you? I assume it's no coincidence that the word is in your name.
Paul: Yes, exactly. I have to say: I used to be a spoken word artist, a rapper, and I've always loved wordplay. My intention was that when I started my own business, I wanted to do something cool that was sustainable and did more for society than making money for the company. Then I thought it would be cool if it was fair and fermentation was something that was already exciting at the time. We then started our company in a workshop for people with disabilities. We started there in a small kitchen and worked with them in a very inclusive way. The basic idea of "fair" was already there.
There are now a few brands that have started selling raw kombucha. Back then, kombucha was only ever available pasteurized - in other words, no longer alive, but boiled and only made from concentrates. Then we thought, hey, we're also fair because we make a product that isnot pasteurized and that consumersnot deceive the consumer.And Then we also started selling these fermentation kits and equipment and cultures so that people could buy them. They can make it themselves at home for pennies and don't necessarily have to buy it from us if they say: That's too expensive for me.
We teach them, we educate them for free and we thought: that's somehow fair! So it came together that this "Fairment" made total sense, and then we called ourselves "Fairment".
Julia: Cool.
Paul: You could certainly pull other things out of your sleeve, but these are the ones that come to mind spontaneously.
Julia: Yes, I think that's great. You're still in this workshop for the disabled, or what do you mean? Do they still work there?
Paul: You have to imagine that we really startedthere on 10m2. The office was in the production kitchen. Now it's ... I would say 1,000 or in a few months 2,000m2. We are currently expanding the halls.
Most companies work with sheltered workshops so that they commission something. That is then done by them. They offer various things, packaging, shipping, gluing, weighing and things like that. They don't really have much contact with them, they commission them. They never see the goods as they are made and then receive them at some point.
We really work hand in hand with our colleagues there. We see them every day, interact with them every day, talk to them, joke with them, have lunch with them - it's really nice. It's a great atmosphere there. It's great fun and everyone benefits from it. It's much more inclusive than usual.
Julia: Yes. That's brilliant. I was once a guest at a facility like that. It was a tourist offer in Iceland. We had lunch with them and everything. And I thought it was so nice how this mixing took place. I can imagine that it created a great atmosphere.
Paul: It's really nice. Sometimes it's a bit like kindergarten, but it's also funny. They can also laugh at themselves and are also totally funny and ironic and sometimes deal with their disability in a funny way. They don't take it too seriously. It's not at all what you sometimes imagine it to be. It's great fun with them.
Julia: Yes, that was my experience there too. I thought it was really, really nice.
How do you feel when you tell someone about fermenting or fermented foods? Do people always know what it is straight away? Because when I mention it, people often look at me with question marks in their eyes.
Paul: Yes, that's funny, isn't it? Few people know what it is, but everyone has actually eaten something fermented at some point. Many people have something fermented as a favorite dish. There are so many things that are fermented. I can list a few.
Julia: Yes, go ahead.
Paul: Beer, sparkling wine, wine - even if it's a health podcast - most people listening have probably tried them before. Then cheese, yogurt, ham. Now we've covered all the animal products. Or kefir, then water kefir, then salami, koji, miso, kimchi, sauerkraut, sourdough bread ... So, it doesn't stop. It really is endless. Soy sauce, chocolate and coffee are all made by fermentation.
Yes, every culture in the history of mankind has adopted its own fermentation techniques to preserve things for the time being. That was the basic intention behind it. In the past, people didn't have fridges and couldn't preserve and store things anywhere like they can with today's technologies. Then you just realized: hey, if we put it in a brine or mix it with salt and squeeze the juice out of it, like cabbage, and then somehow make it small and seal it so that no oxygen can get in, it will still be good months later and taste a bit different. Some people like it better when it's fermented for a long time, others like it better when it's fermented for a short time. It is also more digestible. It works wonderfully!
What people didn't know back then is that you can also do lots of other great things with them, such as retaining all the nutrients that are now in cabbage - vitamin C, for example. Even if you preserve it somehow - i.e. heat it up - and then put it in cans, it is lost. Fermentation preserves it in this living biotope.
New micronutrients are created. Bacteria and yeasts are active during fermentation, and they create new nutrients, such as B vitamins. This is the case with almost all fermentations. Vitamin B1, B2, B3, B6, folic acid, vitamin B12 ... and always the active forms. This is why it is very popular with vegans and raw foodists to integrate fermented foods.
Problematic plant toxins that are found in many plants, such as cabbage, are broken down by fermentation. These can be a wide variety of things: lectins, goitrogens, phytic acids, gluten, gliadin ... In milk, for example, lactose is broken down and casein is made more digestible by breaking it down. So everything becomes more digestible. Toxins are broken down. There are even studies on kimchi that show that glyphosate is broken down by the microbes. Totally awesome!
Julia: Awesome!
Paul: And fermentation produces more and more microbes, so that some fermented foods, such as sauerkraut or yoghurt or kefir or water kefir, actually contain probiotic strains and are like a homemade probiotic. Many people run to the pharmacy and buy expensive sachets or capsules with probiotics in them every month, but they can actually make them cheaply at home and have made a great contribution to the gut.
Julia: Yes, yes. And it's not that difficult, is it? Many people think it's super time-consuming because they know it from sauerkraut, for example, where you have to make huge vats. But it's not necessary to make such huge quantities, you can do it relatively easily at home.
Paul: Exactly. You can do that You can also do it on a smaller scale. Then you might chop up two cabbages, put half of one in a jar with a little pepper, the other half with a little other spice. Half of the other in a jar with a little seaweed, the other half mixed with a little red cabbage or something. Then you also have smaller jars, which you can then use directly ... When they are finished fermenting and you say: "Oh, now it tastes delicious. Now I want the taste to stay that way", then you can put them in the fridge. You can't put the fat barrel in the fridge. Or you'll have to fiddle around with it again.
Julia: Yes, that's right. Now you said you started with kombucha. Kombucha is made from tea. Does that also count as fermentation, as you explained earlier? Because you don't add salt to it, but sugar. Is that a different process, or is it also called "fermentation"?
Paul: That's a good question. Experts argue about whether it is fermentation or not. I would say yes, it belongs in the fermentation universe and is an acetic acid fermentation. This is a fermentation that takes place "aerobically", i.e. in combination with oxygen. "Anaerobic" in turn would be one that takes place without oxygen, such as sauerkraut or kimchi.
Acetic acid fermentation involves acetic acid bacteria - also known as "acetobacter" - which then ferment the glucose - i.e. the sugar - in the sweet tea, which is the basic ingredient. They then ferment it into kombucha. Glucose is broken down in the process, so there is less and less sugar. Then it becomes more and more acidic, because acids, organic acids, are produced in the process.
Don't worry, anyone who is now thinking: "Oh my God! Now I'm becoming acidic!" This is not simply the case; kombucha also provides minerals and is metabolized in an alkaline way, like a lemon, for example. This produces carbonic acid. This is also an acid that is produced. This gives it that natural bubbly fizz that many people really like, that champagne fizz.
What else?
Yes, it produces all these great by-products, such as vitamins and more and more microbes.
Julia: So it's actually also a probiotic, you could say.
Paul: Yes, there are yeast strains that are in there that are called probiotics. You can't guarantee with every fermentation that everyone does at home that these strains will develop exactly one hundred percent in it, where there have also been studies for expensive money that have identified exactly this strain as a probiotic strain, but many different strains that are very similar and have a similar effect. That's also the great thing about microbes. High microbial diversity is also important for intestinal health. It's not really the case that we have to consume the exact probiotic strains in order to have a health effect. Because if you drink these microbes and they survive the stomach acid - and they do with many ferments - and then arrive in the intestine, they can make their DNA available to other microbes in case of doubt, so that they in turn can use it to perform certain functions in the intestine.
Julia: Yes. Yes. It's brilliant, isn't it, how it all works together?
Paul: Definitely.
Julia: On the subject of acidity, I just wanted to say that we also do a lot of microbiome analyses and see that many people havetoo little acid in their gut. Many people don't know that either, do they? An overly alkaline environment in the gut is not good either. That sounds good at first, but of course we need acid to digest food and kombucha definitely helps here.
Paul: Definitely!
Julia: If people have too high a pH value in their gut, drinking kombucha is a good idea.
Paul: Exactly. Raw apple cider vinegar is also great as a digestif with a meal. You can digest a salad much better if you add a little vinegar to it, or if you simply drink some kombucha before a big meal.
Incidentally, this also regulates blood sugar levels. That's another great thing about many ferments, because of these acids. You have to imagine that when you eat something sweet, your blood sugar level goes up. Insulin is then released. That's not exactly good for the body because it's comparable to an inflammatory reaction, to put it bluntly. It's dangerous for the body to have sugar in the blood because then uninvited guests - such as microbes - that we catch every day or, in the worst case, that have been dormant in us for years, have something to feed on in the blood. That's why the sugar has to get out of the blood very quickly. The great thing about many ferments is that these organic acids help to regulate the blood sugar level, i.e. normalize it again. The sugar load, which is still present in some ferments, is not as problematic as it is with a lemonade that does not contain these organic acids.
In addition, micronutrients - such as vitamin C, B vitamins and minerals - are needed so that sugar can be metabolized in the body, and ferments also provide these. So, ferments come as whole foods, like a whole fruit and not just pure fructose. That's how I always try to present it as a picture.
Julia: That also explains why many people say that eating fermented foods makes them less hungry.
Paul: Yes! Really!
Julia: That's certainly a good explanation.
Paul: Exactly. Many people also take it for fasting. Simply to keep blood sugar levels stable during the day. Fantastic!
Julia: Now, you mentioned at the beginning that you've found a way to make it available to people cheaply. Does that mean you teach them how to do it themselves?
Paul: Exactly.
Julia: Perhaps you could briefly explain this variant? How can you make your own kombucha at home?
Paul: That is Very simple: we either supply the Kombucha culture or a complete starter kit for the culture.
Julia: Perhaps you could briefly explain what a culture is?
Paul: In Kombucha, a culture is a tea fungus. It's a cellulose structure formed by bacteria. It contains yeasts and bacteria. They live together in symbiosis. So they are buddies and they help each other. But then there is also a liquid. This is a very acidic Kombucha - the so-called preparation liquid - in which this tea fungus floats.
When this preparation liquid with the tea fungus comes into contact with sweet, fresh tea that has cooled down - if it is too hot, they die, it has to be cooled down - then they start to become active again and metabolize the sugar and other substances, such as nitrogen, for example, that are in the tea. Funnily enough, they are just like us, the microbes: If there is a little bit of teein or caffeine in the kombucha, and if it is not herbal tea but green or black tea, then they also work faster!
But you can also make the caffeine-free version, with hibiscus tea or something like that.
Julia: Okay, that works too.
Paul: Yes.
Julia: Great. And then you leave it. How many days?
Paul: That always depends a bit. On the recipe and how many degrees it is. Funnily enough, it also depends on what time of year it is, where you live and whether you often have the window open or not, because yeasts also come from the trees. If there are fruit trees in the area, then yeasts from them may fly into your kombucha. They will then ensure that the fermentation can proceed more quickly.
I would say it takes between ... If it's very warm, it can be ready after just five days. If it's relatively cool - I'd say 20°C, 21°C - then it can also take 14 to 21 days. Everyone can decide according to their own taste: How sour do I want my kombucha? How much sugar do I want in it? What is the sweet spot for me where I say: "Mmmh, great, that's how I want it!"
For example, I have a kombucha here that I strained a bit late because I was on the road, so I "harvested" it, I say. Then I just threw in some frozen fruit and put it back in the fridge. You can see that all the polyphenols have migrated into the drink. And it tastes so incredibly delicious like berries, really intensely like berries.
This is how you can preserve fruit. You simply throw them into this kombucha and they don't go bad, because the kombucha is so acidic that it doesn't go mouldy. It's also super sustainable and a great way to use food sustainably at home. And you can sweeten the kombucha again in an emergency if it has become too sour. You can also add juice. You can add a little sugar if you like.
Julia: Yes, great. And how successful is it? What can go wrong?
Paul: What can go wrong? The first The biggest mistake that can be made is to pour the kombucha culture into a hot tea so that it dies. Then little or nothing happens. After a few weeks, a little mold fluff will probably form on top, and then you can see: "Ah, okay, mold." Our instincts warn us immediately. So don't worry that you're consuming something that's no longer good. Funnily enough, sometimes the yeasts that form in it look a bit scary. They look like aliens or something, but it's all unproblematic.
Another mistake could be that you don't put a cloth over the top so that fruit flies are attracted by the smell and sit on the mushroom and lay their eggs there. That happens sometimes. Then you just dispose of the whole thing.
Or you put it very close to a plant that has mold spores in the soil and they fly through the air. If too little preparation liquid is then added or someone simply throws in the tea fungus without the preparation liquid, then it is not acidic enough. Then the environment is still relatively unsafe and pathogenic germs or molds can gain a foothold more easily. But you notice this immediately.
Nobody needs to be afraid. According to the Department of Agriculture in the USA, there has never been a case in the last 100 years where someone has been poisoned or died because they ate something fermented. It is rather the case that food issafer safer.
For example, if you have a cucumber with EHEC on it or any germs from factory farming that are poisonous, if you make sour cucumbers from it, then our good old friends, the microbes, make short work of the EHEC. Then you can eat this cucumber without any problems.
Or the fermentation doesn't work and it goes moldy. But then our "tasters" told us: "No, it's not, don't eat it." That's actually quite cool.
Julia: I think the nose and eyes are good ways of testing whether it's okay.
Paul: Exactly. We've taught fermentation to over 100,000 people and it doesn't work for less than 1 percent. So, 0.5 percent maybe.
Julia: Yes, you also have to say that when you order your starter kit - we've done that before - you get a jar and you also get this cloth. So, nothing can really go wrong. And you've presented the instructions very nicely. I think you also have things online where people can perhaps ask questions, or what's that like?
Paul: Yes, we have huge Facebook communities for various ferments, i.e. Facebook groups with over 20,000 members. Anyone can just come in, ask questions, post photos and be inspired by the community. That's totally cool. Everyone in the community supports each other, answers questions, exchanges recipes and gives tips. That's mega cool. Click here to go to the Kombucha Facebook group, for example: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Fairment
Other than that, we also organize the Fermentation Congress. This is also currently running. You can also take a look there: www.fermentationskongress.de. It's free for a certain period of time. You can listen to various expert interviews on fermentation topics.
Or simply take a look at the website:www.fairment.de. There is equipment, ready-made ferments, cultures and all sorts of things.
Julia: Yes, great. Now you've said that you also have ready-made kombucha. Maybe you can say something more about that. What do you have to watch out for? You gave a few hints at the beginning about what might not be so healthy and not so good. What characterizes a good quality store-bought kombucha?
Paul: It's important to make sure that the kombucha is in the chiller cabinet. If it's not in the chiller cabinet, then you can be relatively sure that it's either pasteurized - i.e. no longer alive - and therefore has far fewer of these great ingredients and no more microbes in it. Or it has been put there incorrectly by a store employee, and then it is possible that 1.5 percent alcohol has been produced or the bottle bubbles over when you open it because it is still fermenting - i.e. alive.
Unfortunately, Kombucha companies or other companies that have Kombucha as a product in their portfolio also have it in the fridge so that the consumer in the store thinks: "Ah, then that's a raw food Kombucha", but that's not necessarily the case. They are also pasteurized. You have to check whether it says "raw", "raw food quality", "unpasteurized", "alive", "fermentation-active" or something like that. These are indications of this quality feature.
Julia: Okay. I remember that from when kombucha first started. It was really more like lemonade then. It was also very, very sweet. Can you also pay attention to that? How much sugar is actually in a finished kombucha, in a good, high-quality, raw fermented kombucha? Approximately how much sugar is in it?
Paul: Everyone can decide that for themselves. You can ferment it until there are only traces of sugar in it. But then it's really sour.
Julia: And in the one you buy ready-made?
Paul: For example, ours contains less than 5 grams of sugar. We do write on it that it contains more, but the sugar gets less and less over time, even if it's on the chiller shelf.
If you now say: "Yes, but that's still a lot of sugar!" Well, when it comes to soft drinks or something like that, they don't sweeten it with sugar either, but with aspartame, in the worst case, or other sugar substitutes, agave syrup or grape sweetener. This is then pure fructose and is even worse, in my opinion, than real sugar.
Julia: Yes, that's true.
Paul: Then you have the sugar that's already on the label, plus the invisible fructose sugar on top. So, we really only have sugar in it, and actually less than it says on the label.
We're going to change the label again anyway. We said that sugar is not nearly as problematic in kombucha as it is in something else.
Julia: And we can tolerate a little sugar. We are genetically programmed for 30 grams of sugar per day. The body can cope with that, with a little bit of sugar. I always say that sugar is something that our body knows. If it's normal sugar, it can actually cope with it as long as it's not too much. But it can't cope with these newfangled things or artificial ones or something like that.
Paul: Especially if you consume the sugar after a sports session, then it's even less of a problem because the muscles then absorb the sugar without needing much help from insulin. Or if you combine it with a little protein, fats and other complex carbohydrates, then it's not such a direct hit to the body as eating pure sugar.
Julia: You mentioned kefir and water kefir at the beginning. That's what you offer. I don't think it's that easy to get hold of. You can also order it from you. They're like pellets, aren't they?
Paul: There is milk kefir. They are tubers. I call them "white gold". They are great! They don't grow very much and are super valuable. There are already references in the holy scriptures that these tubers were exchanged. They could be used to preserve milk for a very long time. Milk kefir is the superhero among probiotic, fermented foods. It contains over 60 probiotic strains and also exactly these strains, probiotics, which are otherwise available in stores. An absolutely great drink. Lots of B vitamins, vitamin C, great amino acids ...
So, I'd say it really is a good mood drink. If someone is going through a tough, depressive, difficult phase, then I recommend - especially if the person perhaps doesn't have a lot of money to buy a lot of food supplements and do something about micronutrients - then I say: "Hey, come on, try a milk kefir. Make your own milk kefir at home every day. You can make half a liter of milk kefir a day for 50 cents and get great nutrients."
Water kefir are small crystals. At least that's what they look like. They are also very grateful microbes. They can metabolize any kind of sugar. They are also lactic acid bacteria, although they don't need milk. It's nature's lemonade and kombucha is nature's iced tea, I would say. Children love water kefir. People who don't like the sour vinegar taste of kombucha prefer water kefir, and it's quick to make. In three days. You don't even have to make tea. You just take water, a little sugar, a few fruits, add tubers and you're done. After three days you have a sparkling lemonade.
Julia: I think what we haven't even mentioned yet, which perhaps not everyone is aware of, is that you don't have to buy it again and again, you can use it again and again. Do they work at some point? I think they multiply too, don't they?
Paul: Exactly. They multiply and actually double with every brewing cycle. You can use them again and again. You can even go to the store, buy a Kombucha from us and grow a tea fungus from this Kombucha and brew it yourself. This then takes quite a while and you start very small. For the German thrifty types who are watching: Of course you can also do it this way. This is also a sign of quality, which is why our kombucha is authentic and alive. You can grow a tea mushroom from it.
Julia: Once you have this mushroom, it always gets new layers. You can also pass something on to someone else.
Paul: Yes.
Julia: You can also share the mushrooms in a large group. I think that's great too. Many people aren't aware of that. It really is something you buy once, and if you look after it well, you can enjoy it for many years.
Paul: That's exactly what it looks like. That's also the beauty of this sharing, of this ferment community.
Julia: That's right. It all fits together really well. Now, as a Swiss person, I naturally have another question: Do you also deliver to Switzerland?
Paul: We also deliver to Switzerland.
Julia: And that works without any problems? What about customs? Have you heard anything from your Swiss customers?
Paul: We've got it pretty well sorted by now. I think there's a minimum order value for free delivery, which is a bit higher in Switzerland than in Germany. But everything else works there. It's not my area, so I don't want to lie, but I think that's how it was.
Julia: We Swiss are sometimes a little bit of a hotchpotch when it comes to the fact that certain companies don't send anything to Switzerland. But it's good to know that it works.
I think you mentioned sourdough once. There are really quite a few different things that you can order and try out. It takes a bit of patience, but actually much less than you think. It's really something that you can do with very little ... boil tea, stir in a bit of sugar ... Sure, you have to wait for it to cool down, but it's actually a matter of minutes, all in all, where you have to be active.
Paul: Exactly. And then you have a few liters right away. Nothing can burn. You don't have to use any energy to make it. It's also sustainable in that sense. It doesn't have to be stored in the fridge if it becomes a herb or anything like that, or if you consume it straight away. It's also very sustainable in that sense. And it's so delicious that it can be made again relatively quickly.
Julia: Yes, exactly. We've actually always done it in such a way that we've already prepared the next one, because it takes a few days until it's ready, and then you have a few days to drink the first one. Then the next one is already ready.
Paul: What I like for For example - and this is really the simplest of all: I have my water kefir crystals at home, they survive for three months in the fridge in a little sugar water. The kombucha tea fungus - if you ever need a break - it also survives in its liquid in the fridge for a year! Milk kefir also lasts a year.
When I invite guests over - in times when this is possible - I simply get a few really good organic juices, pour a little bit of it off, put the water kefir crystals in the top of the bottle, close it, and then after 24 to 32 hours I put it in the fridge. When the guests arrive, I have a probiotic, slightly alcoholic aperitif. It's actually something between sparkling wine with OJ and OJ, which is usually served at a reception or party. Everyone always loves it. It tastes delicious, is healthy and with juice, the water kefir becomes a little alcoholic because it contains a lot of fructose. If you make it normally, it doesn't become so alcoholic.
Julia: Finally, I would like to touch on a topic where you just mentioned fructose. You said, for example, that kefir, milk kefir, is better tolerated afterwards, even for people who are lactose intolerant, for example. What about all these intolerances, whether it's lactose or fructose or perhaps histamine intolerance? Are there certain things you have to be careful with, or can everyone tolerate everything? What is your experience?
Paul: That's a good question. With histamine, I would advise starting carefully, because fermentation always produces histamine, of course. I would then advise you to perhaps start with water kefir. It has relatively little histamine. Or with a very, very long fermented sauerkraut, because the funny thing is: there are histamine-forming bacteria, and there are even bacteria that break down histamine. At the beginning of the fermentation of sauerkraut, those that produce histamine multiply, which means that the histamine content increases. When it becomes really sour, however, they decrease again and then the bacteria that break down histamine slowly increase. So after six weeks of fermentation you can try the sauerkraut. I tolerate it very well, and I used to have a really bad histamine intolerance. Now I have almost no problems at all.
Otherwise, even if you are lactose intolerant, try milk kefir. That shouldn't be a problem. Fructose intolerance: If your fructose intolerance is really bad, then I would perhaps advise you to make kombucha with rice syrup or glucose syrup. Then it really only contains glucose and no fructose at all. But these ferments are also very digestible. I have never heard of anyone who is fructose intolerant contacting us and saying that they have an exaggerated reaction to our products. I would have noticed that. There were always questions and then we said: "Yes, you can brew fructose-free too." But there was never a complaint about that.
Julia: Great. You're right, of course: if you get your gut back in order, many intolerances disappear. Either completely or at least you become much, much more robust and can tolerate certain things again in smaller quantities.
Paul: Exactly. I wouldn't advise someone who is chronically ill and really has intestinal problems to start with sourdough. Then I would say: Hey, it tastes super tasty and is cool and is also fermented, but grain is not the best food for humans, even if it is fermented. It's more digestible, healthier, more nutrients ... But then maybe first get your gut in order and then make a sourdough.
Julia: Yes, that's right.
Paul: But if you can't resist it anyway, you can also eat sourdough bread. I prefer sourdough to normal bread.
Julia: Yes, definitely! Definitely. As you said, it's more digestible.
Yes, thank you very much. I think you've answered all the questions I had in mind and I think you've really made me want to give it a try. I can really only recommend it to anyone. It's super easy, it's fun, and Fairment also puts it together with love. I really love what you offer.
Paul: Thank you.
Julia: Is there anything else I've forgotten? Or that we've forgotten? Is there anything else you would like to mention or give my listeners?
Paul: Just have a look at our website:www.fairment.de. I would be very pleased. Or www.fermentationskongress.de. Since you just said that you've also tried kombucha ... I found a very old video on YouTube in which you unpacked one of our very old sets.
Julia: Yes!
Paul: I watched that the other day with Leon, my co-founder. It was really great. It really made us laugh. Our wives were also there and watched it. They were totally blown away by how the sets looked back then. They were such huge boxes, padded, with a huge glass. Now it all looks much more ... appropriate, with better instructions and all that. But that's how it started.
Julia: Yes, funny, isn't it? I was there!
Paul: Yes.
Julia: Yes, it's funny. We've known each other for a really long time, including through the Paleo Convention. I was also allowed to present there once. It's really nice, the history that we've experienced together. I always like it when you can keep in touch online.
Paul: Definitely, definitely.
Julia: Thank you very much for talking to us.
Paul: Thank you very much, Julia.
Julia: Take care. See you again soon.
At the very beginning Paul also mentioned that he used to be a rapper, here's recent proof that he can still do it... His sourdough rap:
Do you have any questions for me? Or feedback on the podcast? Then write in the comments below.
Now I recommend you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode, and if you like what you hear, I really appreciate a review on iTunes or Apple Podcast. Because these reviews also help other people find the podcast so we can spread the knowledge about gut and health more.
In the interview, we talk about, among other things:
- Why the word "fair" is in the name Fairment
- What are the health benefits of fermented foods
- How you can make your own fermented foods and drinks super cheaply and sustainably
- What can go wrong when fermenting and how to prevent it
You can listen to the episode here:
[g_podcast id="17004887"]
The impact of fermented foods and drinks on your health
Julia: I'm very pleased to have a new interview guest today. We're talking to Paul Seelhorst from "Fairment" about fermentation. Welcome, Paul, and thank you for taking the time.
Paul: Hi Julia. Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm very happy to be here.
Julia: That's nice. What I would like to know first: Your name "Fairment" has the word "fair" in it. What does fairness mean to you? I assume it's no coincidence that the word is in your name.
"Fairment" - the name says it all
Paul: Yes, exactly. I have to say: I used to be a spoken word artist, a rapper, and I've always loved wordplay. My intention was that when I started my own business, I wanted to do something cool that was sustainable and did more for society than making money for the company. Then I thought it would be cool if it was fair and fermentation was something that was already exciting at the time. We then started our company in a workshop for people with disabilities. We started there in a small kitchen and worked with them in a very inclusive way. The basic idea of "fair" was already there.
There are now a few brands that have started selling raw kombucha. Back then, kombucha was only ever available pasteurized - in other words, no longer alive, but boiled and only made from concentrates. Then we thought, hey, we're also fair because we make a product that isnot pasteurized and that consumersnot deceive the consumer.And Then we also started selling these fermentation kits and equipment and cultures so that people could buy them. They can make it themselves at home for pennies and don't necessarily have to buy it from us if they say: That's too expensive for me.
We teach them, we educate them for free and we thought: that's somehow fair! So it came together that this "Fairment" made total sense, and then we called ourselves "Fairment".
Julia: Cool.
Paul: You could certainly pull other things out of your sleeve, but these are the ones that come to mind spontaneously.
From 10m2 to soon 2000m2
Julia: Yes, I think that's great. You're still in this workshop for the disabled, or what do you mean? Do they still work there?
Paul: You have to imagine that we really startedthere on 10m2. The office was in the production kitchen. Now it's ... I would say 1,000 or in a few months 2,000m2. We are currently expanding the halls.
Most companies work with sheltered workshops so that they commission something. That is then done by them. They offer various things, packaging, shipping, gluing, weighing and things like that. They don't really have much contact with them, they commission them. They never see the goods as they are made and then receive them at some point.
We really work hand in hand with our colleagues there. We see them every day, interact with them every day, talk to them, joke with them, have lunch with them - it's really nice. It's a great atmosphere there. It's great fun and everyone benefits from it. It's much more inclusive than usual.
Julia: Yes. That's brilliant. I was once a guest at a facility like that. It was a tourist offer in Iceland. We had lunch with them and everything. And I thought it was so nice how this mixing took place. I can imagine that it created a great atmosphere.
Paul: It's really nice. Sometimes it's a bit like kindergarten, but it's also funny. They can also laugh at themselves and are also totally funny and ironic and sometimes deal with their disability in a funny way. They don't take it too seriously. It's not at all what you sometimes imagine it to be. It's great fun with them.
Julia: Yes, that was my experience there too. I thought it was really, really nice.
Ferments - traditional superfood
How do you feel when you tell someone about fermenting or fermented foods? Do people always know what it is straight away? Because when I mention it, people often look at me with question marks in their eyes.
Paul: Yes, that's funny, isn't it? Few people know what it is, but everyone has actually eaten something fermented at some point. Many people have something fermented as a favorite dish. There are so many things that are fermented. I can list a few.
Julia: Yes, go ahead.
Paul: Beer, sparkling wine, wine - even if it's a health podcast - most people listening have probably tried them before. Then cheese, yogurt, ham. Now we've covered all the animal products. Or kefir, then water kefir, then salami, koji, miso, kimchi, sauerkraut, sourdough bread ... So, it doesn't stop. It really is endless. Soy sauce, chocolate and coffee are all made by fermentation.
Yes, every culture in the history of mankind has adopted its own fermentation techniques to preserve things for the time being. That was the basic intention behind it. In the past, people didn't have fridges and couldn't preserve and store things anywhere like they can with today's technologies. Then you just realized: hey, if we put it in a brine or mix it with salt and squeeze the juice out of it, like cabbage, and then somehow make it small and seal it so that no oxygen can get in, it will still be good months later and taste a bit different. Some people like it better when it's fermented for a long time, others like it better when it's fermented for a short time. It is also more digestible. It works wonderfully!
Ferments as a source of nutrients
What people didn't know back then is that you can also do lots of other great things with them, such as retaining all the nutrients that are now in cabbage - vitamin C, for example. Even if you preserve it somehow - i.e. heat it up - and then put it in cans, it is lost. Fermentation preserves it in this living biotope.
New micronutrients are created. Bacteria and yeasts are active during fermentation, and they create new nutrients, such as B vitamins. This is the case with almost all fermentations. Vitamin B1, B2, B3, B6, folic acid, vitamin B12 ... and always the active forms. This is why it is very popular with vegans and raw foodists to integrate fermented foods.
Problematic plant toxins that are found in many plants, such as cabbage, are broken down by fermentation. These can be a wide variety of things: lectins, goitrogens, phytic acids, gluten, gliadin ... In milk, for example, lactose is broken down and casein is made more digestible by breaking it down. So everything becomes more digestible. Toxins are broken down. There are even studies on kimchi that show that glyphosate is broken down by the microbes. Totally awesome!
Julia: Awesome!
Paul: And fermentation produces more and more microbes, so that some fermented foods, such as sauerkraut or yoghurt or kefir or water kefir, actually contain probiotic strains and are like a homemade probiotic. Many people run to the pharmacy and buy expensive sachets or capsules with probiotics in them every month, but they can actually make them cheaply at home and have made a great contribution to the gut.
Julia: Yes, yes. And it's not that difficult, is it? Many people think it's super time-consuming because they know it from sauerkraut, for example, where you have to make huge vats. But it's not necessary to make such huge quantities, you can do it relatively easily at home.
Paul: Exactly. You can do that You can also do it on a smaller scale. Then you might chop up two cabbages, put half of one in a jar with a little pepper, the other half with a little other spice. Half of the other in a jar with a little seaweed, the other half mixed with a little red cabbage or something. Then you also have smaller jars, which you can then use directly ... When they are finished fermenting and you say: "Oh, now it tastes delicious. Now I want the taste to stay that way", then you can put them in the fridge. You can't put the fat barrel in the fridge. Or you'll have to fiddle around with it again.
Kombucha - the "iced tea of nature"
Julia: Yes, that's right. Now you said you started with kombucha. Kombucha is made from tea. Does that also count as fermentation, as you explained earlier? Because you don't add salt to it, but sugar. Is that a different process, or is it also called "fermentation"?
Paul: That's a good question. Experts argue about whether it is fermentation or not. I would say yes, it belongs in the fermentation universe and is an acetic acid fermentation. This is a fermentation that takes place "aerobically", i.e. in combination with oxygen. "Anaerobic" in turn would be one that takes place without oxygen, such as sauerkraut or kimchi.
Acetic acid fermentation involves acetic acid bacteria - also known as "acetobacter" - which then ferment the glucose - i.e. the sugar - in the sweet tea, which is the basic ingredient. They then ferment it into kombucha. Glucose is broken down in the process, so there is less and less sugar. Then it becomes more and more acidic, because acids, organic acids, are produced in the process.
Don't worry, anyone who is now thinking: "Oh my God! Now I'm becoming acidic!" This is not simply the case; kombucha also provides minerals and is metabolized in an alkaline way, like a lemon, for example. This produces carbonic acid. This is also an acid that is produced. This gives it that natural bubbly fizz that many people really like, that champagne fizz.
What else?
Yes, it produces all these great by-products, such as vitamins and more and more microbes.
A natural probiotic for your gut
Julia: So it's actually also a probiotic, you could say.
Paul: Yes, there are yeast strains that are in there that are called probiotics. You can't guarantee with every fermentation that everyone does at home that these strains will develop exactly one hundred percent in it, where there have also been studies for expensive money that have identified exactly this strain as a probiotic strain, but many different strains that are very similar and have a similar effect. That's also the great thing about microbes. High microbial diversity is also important for intestinal health. It's not really the case that we have to consume the exact probiotic strains in order to have a health effect. Because if you drink these microbes and they survive the stomach acid - and they do with many ferments - and then arrive in the intestine, they can make their DNA available to other microbes in case of doubt, so that they in turn can use it to perform certain functions in the intestine.
Julia: Yes. Yes. It's brilliant, isn't it, how it all works together?
Paul: Definitely.
Julia: On the subject of acidity, I just wanted to say that we also do a lot of microbiome analyses and see that many people havetoo little acid in their gut. Many people don't know that either, do they? An overly alkaline environment in the gut is not good either. That sounds good at first, but of course we need acid to digest food and kombucha definitely helps here.
Paul: Definitely!
Regulating pH levels and reducing sugar
Julia: If people have too high a pH value in their gut, drinking kombucha is a good idea.
Paul: Exactly. Raw apple cider vinegar is also great as a digestif with a meal. You can digest a salad much better if you add a little vinegar to it, or if you simply drink some kombucha before a big meal.
Incidentally, this also regulates blood sugar levels. That's another great thing about many ferments, because of these acids. You have to imagine that when you eat something sweet, your blood sugar level goes up. Insulin is then released. That's not exactly good for the body because it's comparable to an inflammatory reaction, to put it bluntly. It's dangerous for the body to have sugar in the blood because then uninvited guests - such as microbes - that we catch every day or, in the worst case, that have been dormant in us for years, have something to feed on in the blood. That's why the sugar has to get out of the blood very quickly. The great thing about many ferments is that these organic acids help to regulate the blood sugar level, i.e. normalize it again. The sugar load, which is still present in some ferments, is not as problematic as it is with a lemonade that does not contain these organic acids.
In addition, micronutrients - such as vitamin C, B vitamins and minerals - are needed so that sugar can be metabolized in the body, and ferments also provide these. So, ferments come as whole foods, like a whole fruit and not just pure fructose. That's how I always try to present it as a picture.
Julia: That also explains why many people say that eating fermented foods makes them less hungry.
Paul: Yes! Really!
Julia: That's certainly a good explanation.
Paul: Exactly. Many people also take it for fasting. Simply to keep blood sugar levels stable during the day. Fantastic!
Julia: Now, you mentioned at the beginning that you've found a way to make it available to people cheaply. Does that mean you teach them how to do it themselves?
Paul: Exactly.
Making kombucha yourself at home
Julia: Perhaps you could briefly explain this variant? How can you make your own kombucha at home?
Paul: That is Very simple: we either supply the Kombucha culture or a complete starter kit for the culture.
Julia: Perhaps you could briefly explain what a culture is?
Paul: In Kombucha, a culture is a tea fungus. It's a cellulose structure formed by bacteria. It contains yeasts and bacteria. They live together in symbiosis. So they are buddies and they help each other. But then there is also a liquid. This is a very acidic Kombucha - the so-called preparation liquid - in which this tea fungus floats.
When this preparation liquid with the tea fungus comes into contact with sweet, fresh tea that has cooled down - if it is too hot, they die, it has to be cooled down - then they start to become active again and metabolize the sugar and other substances, such as nitrogen, for example, that are in the tea. Funnily enough, they are just like us, the microbes: If there is a little bit of teein or caffeine in the kombucha, and if it is not herbal tea but green or black tea, then they also work faster!
But you can also make the caffeine-free version, with hibiscus tea or something like that.
Julia: Okay, that works too.
Paul: Yes.
Julia: Great. And then you leave it. How many days?
Paul: That always depends a bit. On the recipe and how many degrees it is. Funnily enough, it also depends on what time of year it is, where you live and whether you often have the window open or not, because yeasts also come from the trees. If there are fruit trees in the area, then yeasts from them may fly into your kombucha. They will then ensure that the fermentation can proceed more quickly.
I would say it takes between ... If it's very warm, it can be ready after just five days. If it's relatively cool - I'd say 20°C, 21°C - then it can also take 14 to 21 days. Everyone can decide according to their own taste: How sour do I want my kombucha? How much sugar do I want in it? What is the sweet spot for me where I say: "Mmmh, great, that's how I want it!"
For example, I have a kombucha here that I strained a bit late because I was on the road, so I "harvested" it, I say. Then I just threw in some frozen fruit and put it back in the fridge. You can see that all the polyphenols have migrated into the drink. And it tastes so incredibly delicious like berries, really intensely like berries.
This is how you can preserve fruit. You simply throw them into this kombucha and they don't go bad, because the kombucha is so acidic that it doesn't go mouldy. It's also super sustainable and a great way to use food sustainably at home. And you can sweeten the kombucha again in an emergency if it has become too sour. You can also add juice. You can add a little sugar if you like.
What can go wrong when making your own kombucha?
Julia: Yes, great. And how successful is it? What can go wrong?
Paul: What can go wrong? The first The biggest mistake that can be made is to pour the kombucha culture into a hot tea so that it dies. Then little or nothing happens. After a few weeks, a little mold fluff will probably form on top, and then you can see: "Ah, okay, mold." Our instincts warn us immediately. So don't worry that you're consuming something that's no longer good. Funnily enough, sometimes the yeasts that form in it look a bit scary. They look like aliens or something, but it's all unproblematic.
Another mistake could be that you don't put a cloth over the top so that fruit flies are attracted by the smell and sit on the mushroom and lay their eggs there. That happens sometimes. Then you just dispose of the whole thing.
Or you put it very close to a plant that has mold spores in the soil and they fly through the air. If too little preparation liquid is then added or someone simply throws in the tea fungus without the preparation liquid, then it is not acidic enough. Then the environment is still relatively unsafe and pathogenic germs or molds can gain a foothold more easily. But you notice this immediately.
Nobody needs to be afraid. According to the Department of Agriculture in the USA, there has never been a case in the last 100 years where someone has been poisoned or died because they ate something fermented. It is rather the case that food issafer safer.
For example, if you have a cucumber with EHEC on it or any germs from factory farming that are poisonous, if you make sour cucumbers from it, then our good old friends, the microbes, make short work of the EHEC. Then you can eat this cucumber without any problems.
Or the fermentation doesn't work and it goes moldy. But then our "tasters" told us: "No, it's not, don't eat it." That's actually quite cool.
Julia: I think the nose and eyes are good ways of testing whether it's okay.
Paul: Exactly. We've taught fermentation to over 100,000 people and it doesn't work for less than 1 percent. So, 0.5 percent maybe.
Inspiration, tips and support from the "Fairment" community
Julia: Yes, you also have to say that when you order your starter kit - we've done that before - you get a jar and you also get this cloth. So, nothing can really go wrong. And you've presented the instructions very nicely. I think you also have things online where people can perhaps ask questions, or what's that like?
Paul: Yes, we have huge Facebook communities for various ferments, i.e. Facebook groups with over 20,000 members. Anyone can just come in, ask questions, post photos and be inspired by the community. That's totally cool. Everyone in the community supports each other, answers questions, exchanges recipes and gives tips. That's mega cool. Click here to go to the Kombucha Facebook group, for example: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Fairment
Other than that, we also organize the Fermentation Congress. This is also currently running. You can also take a look there: www.fermentationskongress.de. It's free for a certain period of time. You can listen to various expert interviews on fermentation topics.
Or simply take a look at the website:www.fairment.de. There is equipment, ready-made ferments, cultures and all sorts of things.
Keep an eye out when buying kombucha
Julia: Yes, great. Now you've said that you also have ready-made kombucha. Maybe you can say something more about that. What do you have to watch out for? You gave a few hints at the beginning about what might not be so healthy and not so good. What characterizes a good quality store-bought kombucha?
Paul: It's important to make sure that the kombucha is in the chiller cabinet. If it's not in the chiller cabinet, then you can be relatively sure that it's either pasteurized - i.e. no longer alive - and therefore has far fewer of these great ingredients and no more microbes in it. Or it has been put there incorrectly by a store employee, and then it is possible that 1.5 percent alcohol has been produced or the bottle bubbles over when you open it because it is still fermenting - i.e. alive.
Unfortunately, Kombucha companies or other companies that have Kombucha as a product in their portfolio also have it in the fridge so that the consumer in the store thinks: "Ah, then that's a raw food Kombucha", but that's not necessarily the case. They are also pasteurized. You have to check whether it says "raw", "raw food quality", "unpasteurized", "alive", "fermentation-active" or something like that. These are indications of this quality feature.
Julia: Okay. I remember that from when kombucha first started. It was really more like lemonade then. It was also very, very sweet. Can you also pay attention to that? How much sugar is actually in a finished kombucha, in a good, high-quality, raw fermented kombucha? Approximately how much sugar is in it?
Paul: Everyone can decide that for themselves. You can ferment it until there are only traces of sugar in it. But then it's really sour.
Julia: And in the one you buy ready-made?
Paul: For example, ours contains less than 5 grams of sugar. We do write on it that it contains more, but the sugar gets less and less over time, even if it's on the chiller shelf.
If you now say: "Yes, but that's still a lot of sugar!" Well, when it comes to soft drinks or something like that, they don't sweeten it with sugar either, but with aspartame, in the worst case, or other sugar substitutes, agave syrup or grape sweetener. This is then pure fructose and is even worse, in my opinion, than real sugar.
Julia: Yes, that's true.
Paul: Then you have the sugar that's already on the label, plus the invisible fructose sugar on top. So, we really only have sugar in it, and actually less than it says on the label.
We're going to change the label again anyway. We said that sugar is not nearly as problematic in kombucha as it is in something else.
Julia: And we can tolerate a little sugar. We are genetically programmed for 30 grams of sugar per day. The body can cope with that, with a little bit of sugar. I always say that sugar is something that our body knows. If it's normal sugar, it can actually cope with it as long as it's not too much. But it can't cope with these newfangled things or artificial ones or something like that.
Paul: Especially if you consume the sugar after a sports session, then it's even less of a problem because the muscles then absorb the sugar without needing much help from insulin. Or if you combine it with a little protein, fats and other complex carbohydrates, then it's not such a direct hit to the body as eating pure sugar.
Kefir and water kefir
Julia: You mentioned kefir and water kefir at the beginning. That's what you offer. I don't think it's that easy to get hold of. You can also order it from you. They're like pellets, aren't they?
Paul: There is milk kefir. They are tubers. I call them "white gold". They are great! They don't grow very much and are super valuable. There are already references in the holy scriptures that these tubers were exchanged. They could be used to preserve milk for a very long time. Milk kefir is the superhero among probiotic, fermented foods. It contains over 60 probiotic strains and also exactly these strains, probiotics, which are otherwise available in stores. An absolutely great drink. Lots of B vitamins, vitamin C, great amino acids ...
So, I'd say it really is a good mood drink. If someone is going through a tough, depressive, difficult phase, then I recommend - especially if the person perhaps doesn't have a lot of money to buy a lot of food supplements and do something about micronutrients - then I say: "Hey, come on, try a milk kefir. Make your own milk kefir at home every day. You can make half a liter of milk kefir a day for 50 cents and get great nutrients."
Water kefir are small crystals. At least that's what they look like. They are also very grateful microbes. They can metabolize any kind of sugar. They are also lactic acid bacteria, although they don't need milk. It's nature's lemonade and kombucha is nature's iced tea, I would say. Children love water kefir. People who don't like the sour vinegar taste of kombucha prefer water kefir, and it's quick to make. In three days. You don't even have to make tea. You just take water, a little sugar, a few fruits, add tubers and you're done. After three days you have a sparkling lemonade.
Buy once - harvest forever
Julia: I think what we haven't even mentioned yet, which perhaps not everyone is aware of, is that you don't have to buy it again and again, you can use it again and again. Do they work at some point? I think they multiply too, don't they?
Paul: Exactly. They multiply and actually double with every brewing cycle. You can use them again and again. You can even go to the store, buy a Kombucha from us and grow a tea fungus from this Kombucha and brew it yourself. This then takes quite a while and you start very small. For the German thrifty types who are watching: Of course you can also do it this way. This is also a sign of quality, which is why our kombucha is authentic and alive. You can grow a tea mushroom from it.
Julia: Once you have this mushroom, it always gets new layers. You can also pass something on to someone else.
Paul: Yes.
Julia: You can also share the mushrooms in a large group. I think that's great too. Many people aren't aware of that. It really is something you buy once, and if you look after it well, you can enjoy it for many years.
Paul: That's exactly what it looks like. That's also the beauty of this sharing, of this ferment community.
Julia: That's right. It all fits together really well. Now, as a Swiss person, I naturally have another question: Do you also deliver to Switzerland?
Paul: We also deliver to Switzerland.
Julia: And that works without any problems? What about customs? Have you heard anything from your Swiss customers?
Paul: We've got it pretty well sorted by now. I think there's a minimum order value for free delivery, which is a bit higher in Switzerland than in Germany. But everything else works there. It's not my area, so I don't want to lie, but I think that's how it was.
Julia: We Swiss are sometimes a little bit of a hotchpotch when it comes to the fact that certain companies don't send anything to Switzerland. But it's good to know that it works.
I think you mentioned sourdough once. There are really quite a few different things that you can order and try out. It takes a bit of patience, but actually much less than you think. It's really something that you can do with very little ... boil tea, stir in a bit of sugar ... Sure, you have to wait for it to cool down, but it's actually a matter of minutes, all in all, where you have to be active.
Paul: Exactly. And then you have a few liters right away. Nothing can burn. You don't have to use any energy to make it. It's also sustainable in that sense. It doesn't have to be stored in the fridge if it becomes a herb or anything like that, or if you consume it straight away. It's also very sustainable in that sense. And it's so delicious that it can be made again relatively quickly.
Julia: Yes, exactly. We've actually always done it in such a way that we've already prepared the next one, because it takes a few days until it's ready, and then you have a few days to drink the first one. Then the next one is already ready.
Paul's insider tip: a fermented aperitif for guests
Paul: What I like for For example - and this is really the simplest of all: I have my water kefir crystals at home, they survive for three months in the fridge in a little sugar water. The kombucha tea fungus - if you ever need a break - it also survives in its liquid in the fridge for a year! Milk kefir also lasts a year.
When I invite guests over - in times when this is possible - I simply get a few really good organic juices, pour a little bit of it off, put the water kefir crystals in the top of the bottle, close it, and then after 24 to 32 hours I put it in the fridge. When the guests arrive, I have a probiotic, slightly alcoholic aperitif. It's actually something between sparkling wine with OJ and OJ, which is usually served at a reception or party. Everyone always loves it. It tastes delicious, is healthy and with juice, the water kefir becomes a little alcoholic because it contains a lot of fructose. If you make it normally, it doesn't become so alcoholic.
How well tolerated are fermented drinks for people with intolerances?
Julia: Finally, I would like to touch on a topic where you just mentioned fructose. You said, for example, that kefir, milk kefir, is better tolerated afterwards, even for people who are lactose intolerant, for example. What about all these intolerances, whether it's lactose or fructose or perhaps histamine intolerance? Are there certain things you have to be careful with, or can everyone tolerate everything? What is your experience?
Paul: That's a good question. With histamine, I would advise starting carefully, because fermentation always produces histamine, of course. I would then advise you to perhaps start with water kefir. It has relatively little histamine. Or with a very, very long fermented sauerkraut, because the funny thing is: there are histamine-forming bacteria, and there are even bacteria that break down histamine. At the beginning of the fermentation of sauerkraut, those that produce histamine multiply, which means that the histamine content increases. When it becomes really sour, however, they decrease again and then the bacteria that break down histamine slowly increase. So after six weeks of fermentation you can try the sauerkraut. I tolerate it very well, and I used to have a really bad histamine intolerance. Now I have almost no problems at all.
Otherwise, even if you are lactose intolerant, try milk kefir. That shouldn't be a problem. Fructose intolerance: If your fructose intolerance is really bad, then I would perhaps advise you to make kombucha with rice syrup or glucose syrup. Then it really only contains glucose and no fructose at all. But these ferments are also very digestible. I have never heard of anyone who is fructose intolerant contacting us and saying that they have an exaggerated reaction to our products. I would have noticed that. There were always questions and then we said: "Yes, you can brew fructose-free too." But there was never a complaint about that.
Julia: Great. You're right, of course: if you get your gut back in order, many intolerances disappear. Either completely or at least you become much, much more robust and can tolerate certain things again in smaller quantities.
Paul: Exactly. I wouldn't advise someone who is chronically ill and really has intestinal problems to start with sourdough. Then I would say: Hey, it tastes super tasty and is cool and is also fermented, but grain is not the best food for humans, even if it is fermented. It's more digestible, healthier, more nutrients ... But then maybe first get your gut in order and then make a sourdough.
Julia: Yes, that's right.
Paul: But if you can't resist it anyway, you can also eat sourdough bread. I prefer sourdough to normal bread.
Julia: Yes, definitely! Definitely. As you said, it's more digestible.
Yes, thank you very much. I think you've answered all the questions I had in mind and I think you've really made me want to give it a try. I can really only recommend it to anyone. It's super easy, it's fun, and Fairment also puts it together with love. I really love what you offer.
Paul: Thank you.
Julia: Is there anything else I've forgotten? Or that we've forgotten? Is there anything else you would like to mention or give my listeners?
Paul: Just have a look at our website:www.fairment.de. I would be very pleased. Or www.fermentationskongress.de. Since you just said that you've also tried kombucha ... I found a very old video on YouTube in which you unpacked one of our very old sets.
Julia: Yes!
Paul: I watched that the other day with Leon, my co-founder. It was really great. It really made us laugh. Our wives were also there and watched it. They were totally blown away by how the sets looked back then. They were such huge boxes, padded, with a huge glass. Now it all looks much more ... appropriate, with better instructions and all that. But that's how it started.
Julia: Yes, funny, isn't it? I was there!
Paul: Yes.
Julia: Yes, it's funny. We've known each other for a really long time, including through the Paleo Convention. I was also allowed to present there once. It's really nice, the history that we've experienced together. I always like it when you can keep in touch online.
Paul: Definitely, definitely.
Julia: Thank you very much for talking to us.
Paul: Thank you very much, Julia.
Julia: Take care. See you again soon.
At the very beginning Paul also mentioned that he used to be a rapper, here's recent proof that he can still do it... His sourdough rap:
Do you have any questions for me? Or feedback on the podcast? Then write in the comments below.
Now I recommend you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode, and if you like what you hear, I really appreciate a review on iTunes or Apple Podcast. Because these reviews also help other people find the podcast so we can spread the knowledge about gut and health more.
