[g_podcast id="14069762"]
Maria and Marco have been running thefermentation manufactory "Sauer macht glücklich"since 2015.
In this episode of the Darmglück podcast, we talk about the health benefits of fermented vegetables, how lactic acid fermentation works and how you can ferment at home.
Maria and Marco reveal:
Julia: I am very pleased to be able to meet the lovely Maria and Marco from"Sour makes you happy" here in conversation. Welcome, you two!Our topic is "Fermented foods" and why they are so important for the gutand the intestinal flora. My first question is: fermented foods ... you really read about it more and more. I don't think it was such a thing a few years ago, and at the moment it's really - I would almost say - mainstream.mainstream. Do you also feel that almost everyone knows it now?
Maria:Yes and no. Something has definitely happened. If youtalk about it or bring it up,it's definitely the casethat people already know about fermented food and that it's good. In most cases, they haven't looked into it more intensively, but I definitely notice that they've at least heard about it before.When we started in 2015, that really wasn't the case at all. You stillhad to explainit toeveryone from the ground up when you told them about it. But, yes, more and more people are finding out about it. already know.
Julia: But if we do have listeners who don't know what fermentation is or don't know what it is, could you perhaps briefly explain what it is and how it works?briefly explain what it is and how it works?
Maria: Yes, of course, of course. In our case, by fermentation we mean lactic acid fermentation - there are different forms of fermentation. But lactic acid fermentationinparticular: this is a completely natural process that starts when there is no more oxygen and the lactic acid bacteria have the opportunity to gain the upper hand over the bacteria that would cause rot or mold due to the lack of oxygen. The latter would then need oxygen. If the lactic acid bacteria then have this environment, they begin - in this case in the vegetables - to break down the carbohydrates into sugar, which they thenmetabolize into lactic acid.This also lowers the pH value, which in turn preservesall thefermented material, all the vegetables that youhave there. The end result is sauerkraut, for example.
JuliaSauerkraut is really what most people are familiar with.Although many people turn up their noses when I say that. To be honest, I was one of those people too. When I"sauerkraut" then I thought:"Nah, I don't like it." Butwe talkn not about thisZcooked and the large quantities of sauerkraut that you get slapped on your plate, but we are really talking about fermented vegetables in raw food quality. Right?
Marco: Exactly.
Maria: Yes, exactly. I also think that sauerkraut in particular has this dusty image. Soa a bit... well ... "old people's food" in a way. And cabbage and cabbage and stuff, that's not so sexy now.I remember when we were kids,weused toget fresh sauerkrautfrom the barrels. That's how it was in the supermarkets. As a child,you didn't always get an ice cream or a chocolate. We actually got the fresh sauerkraut from the barrels. And it was really raw. You don't get that in the stores anymore.
Marco: It was really fresh, that's right.Now the sauerkraut in the supermarket is dead. It's overcooked. It doesn't have any probiotics in it, and of course the taste isn't great either.
Maria: No, we're really talking about lactic acid vegetables. These are many different types of vegetables,completely without additives, completely natural, wild and traditionally fermented and - as you say - in raw food quality.Unpasteurized or unheated. Of course, you can also heat them up, but you should be very careful if you really want to.
JuliaYes, the whole point is to get these good bacteria, which we often lack. In our practice, we very often domicrobiome analysesin the stool: what is the bacterial ratio in people? And I can truly say that almost 100 percentof thepeople we test have too few lactic acid bacteria.
If you then heat it up, these bacteria are also destroyed and that's why it makes absolute sense to eat it raw and perhaps not necessarily to heat it up. I think what you can do iseatsomething warmand maybe add these fermented vegetables to it, then that's ok. Or if you put it in a soup that's notexactlyboiling hot. I think there are ways youcan eat it together so that you still like itif someone says:"Hm, I don't like the sour taste that much."But, Maria, you said that there are lots of different vegetables. So, if someone really says:"No, well Sauerkraut, I really can't imagine", what else is there then?
Marco: Exactly, you can ferment a lot of things. Ultimately, we always say that we ferment what we would eatraw, i.e. uncooked. There is such a broad spectrum, from carrots to radishes to ...Weevenferment asparagus,the classic cucumbers...
Maria: Very classic, yes.
Marco: There are those pickling gherkins that you know from the Spreewald. You can also pickle them. We pickle them in brine, of course. Cucumbers from the Spreewald are usually pickled in ...
Maria: They also use brine.
Marco: Yes, butthere are also spiced gherkins. They are then seasoned, often pickled in vinegar. We don't do that at all, because vinegar isn't exactly beneficial either. If you say now:"I don't like sauerkraut."... There are so many variations. For example, we offer sauerkraut with seaweed and ginger or with dill and make it spicy. You can make pink sauerkraut from red cabbage. Even sauerkrautcan be pimped up and made more visually appealing and, above all, more flavorful.
Maria: Also with spices.
Marco: Exactly. And you can also combinefermented vegetables or vegetables in general really well. For example, you can combine carrots and beet. That tastes really great. And then this great red color comes through. There are so many possible combinations. There is also no limit.You can really create any ferment yourself and it will be uniqueevery time. It will never be the same as you once made it, because by changing the spices or adding different vegetables, youcan create a new superfood every time.
JuliaWhat are your tips? If someone now says:"Okay, I would like to try that out. I would also like to do it myself." What are the best tips for someone who wants to start fermenting themselves?
Maria: As with most things, preparation is of course everything. So you need to have a certain amount of basic equipment. This is normal kitchen equipment: a knife, chopping board, maybe even a vegetable slicer - depending on what you want to prepare - but also simply containers that are suitable for fermentation. To make sure that it really works well, makesure that there is a fermentation system, a fermentation seal or that the ironing jars also work. So that you at least have good equipment.
And maybe really start with things that don't take so long,so that you don't have to wait so long. Sauerkraut, for example, definitely needs four weeks, maybe even longer, depending on your taste. But you might make Chinese cabbage or cucumbers in the summer. These are things that ferment more quickly and where you might have quicker success and don't have to be so patient.
You also need to pay attention to the quality of the vegetables. We only use organic vegetables and pay attention to where they come from. And to use a good salt, without additives, without anti-caking agents, without iodine, without folic acid.
JuliaYes, I think that's another important point. Many people don't even realize that salt very often has additives.
Julia: Can you perhaps explain the process a little? What do you need the salt for? How do you get started?
Maria: There are two ways. One is dry salting and the other is salting with abrine, i.e. salt dissolved in water.Grob you can use how you chop the vegetables as a guide. There are a few other things, but that's the rough rule to start with. If I'm making something chunky - like pickled cucumbers, for example - I don't chop them at all. Or I want to make myselfcarrot sticks, i.e.carrots cut into quarters lengthways, for example. Or I cut the carrots roughly into slices. That works too.
These are examples of a coarse version. I always use the brine method. That means Ichop my vegetables the way I want them, put them in afermentation container, mix them with spices -eitherbeforehand orIadd the spices in the container first - and then I pour this brine, or "salt water", over them until everything is well covered. Of course, I cover it with a leaf and weigh it down. Close the jar and leave it alone.
Thedry saltingI use this for sauerkraut or if I have other vegetables that I want to finely shred or grate. This might also be a good idea for carrots or ... beet, because ithas a lot of sugar. It quickly formsdextran. Iwould perhapschop itup rather roughly. But it would be worth considering for carrots, for example. Kohlrabi also works great. Or cabbage in general: White cabbage, red cabbage. These are more likely to be chopped finer.
I then have them dry in my bowl, as I have just sliced or shredded them, and then the salt goes directly on top of the vegetables, without water, with the spices that you still want. Then you have to mix it well in the bowl. You can also leave it to stand for a whileso that it absorbs a little more water. Then knead it in any case so that youget even more liquid outof the vegetables, squeezeoutthe cell juice, the vegetable juice,so to speak. This is how you make your brine from the vegetable juice. And then you put the whole thing into thefermentation vessel, cover it again,weigh it down and add the rest of the juice that was left in the bowl.
Julia: So the aim of theweighing down is that the vegetables are always covered, that they don't come into contact with air. Right?
Maria: It always looks good at first when it comes in, but after one, two or three days it will definitely sprout and then it is no longer covered.
JuliaAnd what would happen if it then floats up?
Maria: At best, nothing will happen. It might just turn a little brown on top. But it's also not unlikely that fermentation is not yet underway - especially if it'sstillat the beginning.It's possible that the part that is exposed to the air at the top - there may still be oxygen in the container - will simply start to go moldy before our lactic acid fermentation has preserved the whole thing. I also need the salt topreservethe whole thing until the lactic acid fermentation is properly underway.
Julia: And how do I recognize if somethinggone wrong has gone wrong?
Maria: You can tell! It's like that.It would definitely have mold on it. Well, it's usually always when there's mold somewhere on top. Then it somehow didn't work out. You can reallyrely on your common sense, on your nose.If it doesn't look good, i.e. the mold is on top, then it's nothing. Otherwise: smell it, try it, as long as there is no mold on top. Once there is, please don't try again. But if there was no mold on top,we've never had a failed fermentation. If there was, then it was really always tilted in such a way that it went moldy.
JuliaAnd then you have to throw the whole jar away?
Marco: Exactly. At least that's what we do. There are also some people who just skim the top, but we throw everything away because you can't see where the mold spores have penetrated. It can be anywhere. That's why we dispose of it completely. We definitely recommend that.But I say, if you want to make sure you use organic vegetables, pay attention to hygiene, watch the temperatures and the ferments, then it will be successful.
JuliaOne more question has arisen for me: Is itimportantwhether you chop or grate it by hand or could you also do it in a ... For example, I now have a Thermomix. Could I also grate the carrots in it?
Marco: You can do that too, yes.
Maria: If it's the right size, definitely. You can also do it like this.
JuliaWhat kind of mistakes can you make? What are the mistakes that you perhaps see most often?
Marco: Well, good mistakes ... It's often written on the internet that I constantlyleave airon the ferment.It's like this:If you use a fermentation system- there are different ones - the idea behind it is to create an anaerobic environment. In other words, a low-oxygen environment to get the fermentation going in the first place. In other words, I want the oxygen to go out of my jar and no new oxygen to come in.There are often rumors,andthey areabsolutely wrong, that you should always open the jar ...
Maria: To "aerate", so to speak.
Marco: Yes, toventilate or open. So, I kind of take the lid off to release the pressure. There is pressure in the jar because carbon dioxide is produced in it, a gas. And it wants to escape somehow. This creates pressure and the lids are often simply opened, pressure escapes and then closed again. But this bringsin newoxygen. So please, don't do that.
Just use a fermentation system. It comes with a valve. The pressure is automatically released without new oxygen coming in. So, this is a really important hack that worksreally well and where there really is false information on the net. You have to say that. It can also work. But as a rule - and we have a huge community, in the five-digit range - it often doesn't work. So that's recommendation no. 1.
Then really useorganic vegetables. The reason for this is simple: if you use conventional vegetables that have been sprayed, they have a chemical coating and this is not natural. As a result, the risk of mold is extremely high. This means that fermentation doesn't get going in the first place.Then use really natural products. As I said,sea salt without anti-caking agents, without e-substances ...
Maria: Or rock salt.
Marco: Exactly, rock salt is also recommended. Pay attention to hygiene.But also make sure that everything is well rinsed, sothatthere areno detergent residues. So again, no chemicals, so that we really have 100 percent naturalness.And then thetemperatureat which I ferment itis very, very important.It must not be too cold or too warm. It's like this:Once I've chopped the vegetables and put them in the fermentation jar, I leave them at room temperature for about a week. Room temperature is around 18 to 22 degrees.Or 20 to 22 degrees,preferably a little warmer than too cold. And after a week, we always recommend putting it in the cellar. The classic cellars, the ones that are really natural and a bit older, usually have a temperature of between 16 and 18 degrees, and that's perfect.
Never put them in the fridge, because that stops the fermentation abruptly and I no longer ferment the product.This is also something that happens quite often,that many people then put the ferment in the fridge very quickly and too quickly.
JuliaSo you only put it in the fridge when you've finished it and actually stop it on purpose.
Marco: Exactly. So when you say:"Wow, bomb! This tastes perfect, great. It's 100 percent ready forme", then you can put it in the fridge. Yes.
Julia: Well, I would have a problem with the cellar here in Mallorca ...
Marco: Yes, but it's better to be too warm than too cold. In Korea,kimchi is also fermented. They don't have a cool 16 to 18 degrees either. It's really more important to be too warm than too cold.Because if it's too cold,the whole thing won't get going in the first place.
JuliaOkay. Maria said at the beginning that you can also use an ironing jar. How does that workwith the pressure? So it doesn't get too high? Do you actually allow it to happen?
Marco: Exactly. You leave it closed. The swing-top jar is made of glass and there's a rubber in between. And the gas can escape through this rubber.
Maria: Yes. And it really does. It works. I've often heard and readthat you shouldn 'tclose the jar sotightly or not close it at all.If you don't close the lid at all, it's slightly askew. So no, reallyclose it properly and then the pressure can come out.
JuliaPerfect. Is it possible to put fruit in as well?I once read a recipe somewhere with peaches in it. Does that really work?
Maria: Yes, definitely. There's definitely sugar in the fruit. It also ferments with it. We'realwaysquite honest: wejust don't like the taste of fruit thatmuch.You also have to be aware that the proportion of alcoholic fermentation is or can be higher with the fruit. Simplyconscious be aware, right? Depending on what you want, or what you don't want.
Marco: But we have published recipes before, an apple and beet relish that wasa huge hit with our community. We simply put it online because of the demand. There's also a YouTube video. As I said, we're not reallyfans of combiningfruit with fermented vegetables, but it seems to have gone down really well.
Julia: It's like this now: We want to eat fermented vegetables to provide us with good bacteria, to support our intestinal flora, to support digestion. How much of the fermented vegetables should I eat so that I can really benefit from thesebenefits benefits?
Maria: It really makes sense to eat two, three, four meals a day -every day! two, three, four tablespoons a day- really every day! That would definitely be better thaneating half a glass or a whole glass once a week.That'sstill better than not eating at all! But if you were really conscious about it, it would be good if you could manage two to four tablespoons a day.
Some people gratesome fresh vegetablesafterwardsand take them outside or to work orsomewhere elseas a meal and then eat them straight from their jar. It's great fast food in that respect, of course.
Marco: Regularity is important. It's better to eat less regularly than too muchonce and then nothing at all.
JuliaDo you have any tips on what it goes particularly well with or how you can combine it?
Maria: Yes, we really like it as a vegetable side dish to a normal hot dish, for example. Then maybe you don't cook extra vegetables with it, but like sauerkraut in the past. That was also a vegetable side dish with - I don't know - roast sausages or roasts or something. The only difference is that you might not make it warm, but simply eat it cold. You still have a warm dish. It also goes wonderfully with potatoes.
Marco: Or Jacket potatoes.It's also great as a substitute ... We used to eat jacket potatoes with linseed oil and quark. For those who are vegan now, vegetables can of course also be added.
Maria: Really, really great.
Marco: Or on bread, that tastes really good too.
Maria: Yes, some things work really well on bread. Also very tasty.Otherwise, in any salad you prepare. It's just now the time when people are starting to eat more saladagain. Maybe with things from the garden or something. It goes well everywhere.
Marco: Or really pure. Pure is always good. You can take it anywhere. Put it in a small jar and whether you're at work, maybe going hiking or out and about. You'll always have your superfood with you.
JuliaYes, it also tastes very refreshing. It also goes wellwith Chinese fried ricefor example. Or with scrambled eggs, if you're not vegan, it goes very well there too. So I think you just have to give it a try.Many people don't always dare to try it, and then I always say:"Just try it and you'll find the combination that works for you."
Maria: A lot depends on that: Which vegetables do I have available right now? And what spices are there that might go well with them. It always depends on that, of course.
Julia: Can you talk about the healthbenefits a bit more than I have just said? So it supports digestion. What else would you say are the reasonsreasons for eating fermented vegetables?
Maria: Exactly, as you say, it supports digestionin several ways.Se have had good experiences with both diarrhea and constipation. We have also heard from a customer with acute complaints. So, the had stomach pains, then ate the fermented vegetables and they went away. Itdoesn't have tohave such an immediate effect on everyone. There are also more sensitive people who react directly to it and some less so. I just want to share the experiences we have already heard.
One ofour customers was a little girl who had an inflamed oesophagus and could hardly eat anything because of it.With the fermented vegetables, they slowly felt their way back and after a week or two her oesophagus was healed and she was able to eat normally again.
Marco: It definitely strengthens the immune system and builds up the intestinal flora thanks to the many bacteria that areadded to the intestine.Especially after antibiotic therapy, which may of coursebe necessaryin certain situations.Then I can reallyrebuildthe intestinal flora, which is really almost dead or non-existentafter taking such medication. That's great in any case.
And Our personal experience and the feedback from many participants in our community is thatfood cravings are extremely reduced. So I mean these cravings for bad food, right? So really less potato chips or chocolate, we know that ourselves when we lie on the couch and eat a lot of it. Well,that really decreases when I eat fermented vegetables regularly, even a little. There are those cravings where you say:"Wow, I can't do this. I have to eat something now."
Maria: Of course, it's also much easier to digest thaneating raw, unprocessed vegetables.Some people say they can't eat raw kohlrabi or raw peppers or something like that. If it's fermented, it's much easier to digest and doesn't"bother" you so much after eating. That's what I'm going to say now, just to give it a to paraphrase a little.
JuliaYes, it's good that you mention this, because I often tell my customers not to eat raw food if they have intestinal problems. For many people, it's also extremely good to give up raw food from time to time. But that doesn't include fermented vegetables in the sense that they are fermented, i.e. already pre-split and therefore easier to digest.
Marco: Exactly, it's pre-digested, so to speak.
Julia: Now, one counter-argument that I get very often is: "But I have a histamine intolerance and that's why I can't eat fermented vegetables." What do you say to that?
Maria: Yes, we know a naturopath who actually used to behistamine intolerant and shebasically cured it completelythrough intestinal cleansing. So many things come from the gut that you can't necessarily say you can cure with fermented foods, but fermented foods are simply one part of many ways to get your gut back in order, to heal it again. And you can use it to fix so many things. Be it skin problems.
Butwithhistamine intolerance, it's also possible to get rid of that. If this is simply not yet in sight, for various reasons ... We also have many customers with histamine intolerance who simplytake care of their bodies and cansimply eat smaller amounts of it.That's what we recommend to everyone who asksus: try it out. Try small amounts and see how you react.
For some - and there are certainly different types -it works very well, for some less so, and for some perhaps not at all. But it's not necessarily out of the question for everyone.
JuliaOkay, great. So, as with everything. I always say nutrition is really something where you have to try things out.Thebody gives us feedback, and maybe you just have to try a learn a little,alsoto listen better to the signals of the body. Vou might want to start with small amounts and not overdo it and just see how you react.
Maria: Exactly, yes.
Julia: I have the same experience, by the way, wf you really get your bowels in order. Mou don't have to eat fermented food right from the start if you have a really bad histamine intoleranceeat fermented foods. You can you can also say: I'm going to eatI'll start by eating in a gut-friendly way and see how I can stabilize it a bit. And then afterwards ...
Vany people always think that things like histamine intolerance or other intolerances are something you have for the rest of your life. DI can really say from experience: No. A lot of things can be reversed if you start eating moremore species-appropriateto eat a more species-appropriate diet.
Maria: Yes, exactly.
Julia: Now it could very well be that my listeners haveand listeners have been inspired to give it a try. You have alreadysuper well but perhaps one or two people would like a little more support. You have developed a course on this - "The Fermentation Formula" - and the course can be booked right now. So, if you're listening to this - dear listener - you can now put your name on the waiting list for thecourse, which opens its doors at the end of this week,at the end of this week.
Iwould be great if you could explain a bit more about how the course works, perhaps also what you were thinking, what your aim is with the course. That would begreatif you could explain that a bit more.
Marco: Yes, thank you Julia. So, we started the course about half a year ago, developed together with our community over the past nine months.The desire arose in our community to offer something that would enable everyone to ferment successfully at home in their own kitchen. Later, of course, independently of us.
We developedit together with our community, as I said, for the first time. And now we'relaunching it for the third time - the doors have just opened again.It's turned outreallygreat. It's not a purely online course as you're used to. It's ahybrid course, so to speak.
I can briefly tell you what's involved:
Of course, we have pre-recorded videos. First of all: What is fermentation? How can you ferment successfully? Why should I ferment? With wonderful videos, with recipes on how I can ferment at home in my kitchen. But there's also something to go with it,sothat everyone has the same starting point.Everyonegets afermentation set sent to their home.In other words, a fermentation system with a jar, a weighting stone, a fermentation cap and a tamper. Everyone gets a workbook physically sent home, and there are lots of othergoodies, and at the end there is a certificate of completion.
But that's not all. This course thrives on the fact that we really ferment together. So there are joint live sessions where all participantsjoin in. Anyone who wants to can also show how they ferment at home intheir kitchen. We will ferment together. That's what the'fermentation formula'is all about, because these are always the best sessions. They always have so much energy. We alwaysreallylook forward to it.
On the one hand, it's all about us really throwing out all the hacks and information that we've learned over the years, w data-contrast="auto">so of course we made mistakes first .And we want to passthis on tothe participants.Everyone canask their questionsinthe Q&A sessions.So there are question-and-answer sessions. Itreally is the case that we ferment together. We all have the vegetables at home, chop them together, pickle them, and everyone really does have several successful ferments at home after these four weeks.It's a really great course. We are nowlaunchingit for the third time.
Of course, due to the current situation, the feedback was:"Wow, we have more time than usual. When is this course actually coming out?" And that's why we're launching this course, because now there's no excuse. Now everyone has time and can really take part in the course and we're just really looking forward to meeting you in person.
JuliaGreat. That sounds great. What's it like if you don't live in Germany now? Do you also send to Switzerland, Austria and so on?
Marco: Of course! We do that too, of course.
JuliaGreat.In case anyone says now:"Oh no, I don't want to do that myself." You also have products that you have fermented and that you send out, right?
Julia: I think people can just have a look at your website and order them straight away. Right?
Marco: That's right. Exactly. We have a fermentation factory. We produce fermented vegetables according to our own quality criteria.De started with this once and now we also offer the option of that you can also ferment at home yourself,sothat everyone can really choose what they like best.
JuliaGreat. Is there anything else at the end?that we have forgotten,that we haven't mentioned yet or that you'd just like to share with our listeners?
Maria: Yes, of course. Sure. Maybe just get started! Always this procrastination and so on ... No, really just dare to try it out. Maybe something won't work out, but don't let that discourage you straight away. We'll keep our fingers crossed and wish you every success with your insertion and lots of fun.
Julia: Thank you very much for the great conversation. Im sure that you have gained some new fans who are now also starting to ferment and will hopefully let you know that they have done so. Feel free to write to Marco and Maria when you have had your first experiences.
You also have a great community, you said. Is that a Facebook group?
Marco: Exactly. The Facebook group itself, I think we already have over 8,000 people in there in total. Our whole community on Pinterest, Instagram, Facebook, that's over 15,000 people. It's really growing extremely fast.
I'd say fermentation is really on everyone's lips right now. Probably also because of the current situation. I'm completely open and honest about that. Peoplemaysimplywant to becomemore independent of the supermarket. They want to know: What's actually in my food? I want to create my own superfood.As a result, thereis a real run at the moment, which of course makes us happy. It simply raises awareness: What is really important to me? What do I want to eat? What ingredients do I want to have in me? And above all: how can I strengthen my immune system?
Julia: GExactly. Great. Yes, you two:It's great what you do! Good luck with the course and have fun with the new group. I look forward to staying in touch.
Marco: Julia, thank you.
Maria: Yes, thank you very much!
The links to the episode are:
You can find out more about "Sour makes you happy" at:www.sauer-macht-gluecklich.de/
Sour makes you happy - apple and beet relish,video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh_biMGVDN0
Sauer macht glücklich Facebook group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/happyfermentation/
Now I recommend you subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you like what you hear, I really appreciate a review on iTunes or Apple Podcast. Because these reviews also help other people find the podcast so we can spread the knowledge about gut and health more.
Maria and Marco have been running thefermentation manufactory "Sauer macht glücklich"since 2015.
In this episode of the Darmglück podcast, we talk about the health benefits of fermented vegetables, how lactic acid fermentation works and how you can ferment at home.
Maria and Marco reveal:
- Which vegetables you can ferment
- What you need to ferment
- How fermentation works
- How to make sure that it works
Julia: I am very pleased to be able to meet the lovely Maria and Marco from"Sour makes you happy" here in conversation. Welcome, you two!Our topic is "Fermented foods" and why they are so important for the gutand the intestinal flora. My first question is: fermented foods ... you really read about it more and more. I don't think it was such a thing a few years ago, and at the moment it's really - I would almost say - mainstream.mainstream. Do you also feel that almost everyone knows it now?
Maria:Yes and no. Something has definitely happened. If youtalk about it or bring it up,it's definitely the casethat people already know about fermented food and that it's good. In most cases, they haven't looked into it more intensively, but I definitely notice that they've at least heard about it before.When we started in 2015, that really wasn't the case at all. You stillhad to explainit toeveryone from the ground up when you told them about it. But, yes, more and more people are finding out about it. already know.
What is fermentation?
Julia: But if we do have listeners who don't know what fermentation is or don't know what it is, could you perhaps briefly explain what it is and how it works?briefly explain what it is and how it works?
Maria: Yes, of course, of course. In our case, by fermentation we mean lactic acid fermentation - there are different forms of fermentation. But lactic acid fermentationinparticular: this is a completely natural process that starts when there is no more oxygen and the lactic acid bacteria have the opportunity to gain the upper hand over the bacteria that would cause rot or mold due to the lack of oxygen. The latter would then need oxygen. If the lactic acid bacteria then have this environment, they begin - in this case in the vegetables - to break down the carbohydrates into sugar, which they thenmetabolize into lactic acid.This also lowers the pH value, which in turn preservesall thefermented material, all the vegetables that youhave there. The end result is sauerkraut, for example.
JuliaSauerkraut is really what most people are familiar with.Although many people turn up their noses when I say that. To be honest, I was one of those people too. When I"sauerkraut" then I thought:"Nah, I don't like it." Butwe talkn not about thisZcooked and the large quantities of sauerkraut that you get slapped on your plate, but we are really talking about fermented vegetables in raw food quality. Right?
Marco: Exactly.
Maria: Yes, exactly. I also think that sauerkraut in particular has this dusty image. Soa a bit... well ... "old people's food" in a way. And cabbage and cabbage and stuff, that's not so sexy now.I remember when we were kids,weused toget fresh sauerkrautfrom the barrels. That's how it was in the supermarkets. As a child,you didn't always get an ice cream or a chocolate. We actually got the fresh sauerkraut from the barrels. And it was really raw. You don't get that in the stores anymore.
Marco: It was really fresh, that's right.Now the sauerkraut in the supermarket is dead. It's overcooked. It doesn't have any probiotics in it, and of course the taste isn't great either.
Maria: No, we're really talking about lactic acid vegetables. These are many different types of vegetables,completely without additives, completely natural, wild and traditionally fermented and - as you say - in raw food quality.Unpasteurized or unheated. Of course, you can also heat them up, but you should be very careful if you really want to.
JuliaYes, the whole point is to get these good bacteria, which we often lack. In our practice, we very often domicrobiome analysesin the stool: what is the bacterial ratio in people? And I can truly say that almost 100 percentof thepeople we test have too few lactic acid bacteria.
If you then heat it up, these bacteria are also destroyed and that's why it makes absolute sense to eat it raw and perhaps not necessarily to heat it up. I think what you can do iseatsomething warmand maybe add these fermented vegetables to it, then that's ok. Or if you put it in a soup that's notexactlyboiling hot. I think there are ways youcan eat it together so that you still like itif someone says:"Hm, I don't like the sour taste that much."But, Maria, you said that there are lots of different vegetables. So, if someone really says:"No, well Sauerkraut, I really can't imagine", what else is there then?
Which vegetables are suitable for fermenting?
Marco: Exactly, you can ferment a lot of things. Ultimately, we always say that we ferment what we would eatraw, i.e. uncooked. There is such a broad spectrum, from carrots to radishes to ...Weevenferment asparagus,the classic cucumbers...
Maria: Very classic, yes.
Marco: There are those pickling gherkins that you know from the Spreewald. You can also pickle them. We pickle them in brine, of course. Cucumbers from the Spreewald are usually pickled in ...
Maria: They also use brine.
Marco: Yes, butthere are also spiced gherkins. They are then seasoned, often pickled in vinegar. We don't do that at all, because vinegar isn't exactly beneficial either. If you say now:"I don't like sauerkraut."... There are so many variations. For example, we offer sauerkraut with seaweed and ginger or with dill and make it spicy. You can make pink sauerkraut from red cabbage. Even sauerkrautcan be pimped up and made more visually appealing and, above all, more flavorful.
Maria: Also with spices.
Marco: Exactly. And you can also combinefermented vegetables or vegetables in general really well. For example, you can combine carrots and beet. That tastes really great. And then this great red color comes through. There are so many possible combinations. There is also no limit.You can really create any ferment yourself and it will be uniqueevery time. It will never be the same as you once made it, because by changing the spices or adding different vegetables, youcan create a new superfood every time.
Maria and Marco's top tips for fermenting
JuliaWhat are your tips? If someone now says:"Okay, I would like to try that out. I would also like to do it myself." What are the best tips for someone who wants to start fermenting themselves?
Maria: As with most things, preparation is of course everything. So you need to have a certain amount of basic equipment. This is normal kitchen equipment: a knife, chopping board, maybe even a vegetable slicer - depending on what you want to prepare - but also simply containers that are suitable for fermentation. To make sure that it really works well, makesure that there is a fermentation system, a fermentation seal or that the ironing jars also work. So that you at least have good equipment.
And maybe really start with things that don't take so long,so that you don't have to wait so long. Sauerkraut, for example, definitely needs four weeks, maybe even longer, depending on your taste. But you might make Chinese cabbage or cucumbers in the summer. These are things that ferment more quickly and where you might have quicker success and don't have to be so patient.
You also need to pay attention to the quality of the vegetables. We only use organic vegetables and pay attention to where they come from. And to use a good salt, without additives, without anti-caking agents, without iodine, without folic acid.
JuliaYes, I think that's another important point. Many people don't even realize that salt very often has additives.
Fermenting - how exactly do you do that?
Julia: Can you perhaps explain the process a little? What do you need the salt for? How do you get started?
Maria: There are two ways. One is dry salting and the other is salting with abrine, i.e. salt dissolved in water.Grob you can use how you chop the vegetables as a guide. There are a few other things, but that's the rough rule to start with. If I'm making something chunky - like pickled cucumbers, for example - I don't chop them at all. Or I want to make myselfcarrot sticks, i.e.carrots cut into quarters lengthways, for example. Or I cut the carrots roughly into slices. That works too.
These are examples of a coarse version. I always use the brine method. That means Ichop my vegetables the way I want them, put them in afermentation container, mix them with spices -eitherbeforehand orIadd the spices in the container first - and then I pour this brine, or "salt water", over them until everything is well covered. Of course, I cover it with a leaf and weigh it down. Close the jar and leave it alone.
Thedry saltingI use this for sauerkraut or if I have other vegetables that I want to finely shred or grate. This might also be a good idea for carrots or ... beet, because ithas a lot of sugar. It quickly formsdextran. Iwould perhapschop itup rather roughly. But it would be worth considering for carrots, for example. Kohlrabi also works great. Or cabbage in general: White cabbage, red cabbage. These are more likely to be chopped finer.
I then have them dry in my bowl, as I have just sliced or shredded them, and then the salt goes directly on top of the vegetables, without water, with the spices that you still want. Then you have to mix it well in the bowl. You can also leave it to stand for a whileso that it absorbs a little more water. Then knead it in any case so that youget even more liquid outof the vegetables, squeezeoutthe cell juice, the vegetable juice,so to speak. This is how you make your brine from the vegetable juice. And then you put the whole thing into thefermentation vessel, cover it again,weigh it down and add the rest of the juice that was left in the bowl.
Julia: So the aim of theweighing down is that the vegetables are always covered, that they don't come into contact with air. Right?
Maria: It always looks good at first when it comes in, but after one, two or three days it will definitely sprout and then it is no longer covered.
JuliaAnd what would happen if it then floats up?
Maria: At best, nothing will happen. It might just turn a little brown on top. But it's also not unlikely that fermentation is not yet underway - especially if it'sstillat the beginning.It's possible that the part that is exposed to the air at the top - there may still be oxygen in the container - will simply start to go moldy before our lactic acid fermentation has preserved the whole thing. I also need the salt topreservethe whole thing until the lactic acid fermentation is properly underway.
What can go wrong?
Julia: And how do I recognize if somethinggone wrong has gone wrong?
Maria: You can tell! It's like that.It would definitely have mold on it. Well, it's usually always when there's mold somewhere on top. Then it somehow didn't work out. You can reallyrely on your common sense, on your nose.If it doesn't look good, i.e. the mold is on top, then it's nothing. Otherwise: smell it, try it, as long as there is no mold on top. Once there is, please don't try again. But if there was no mold on top,we've never had a failed fermentation. If there was, then it was really always tilted in such a way that it went moldy.
JuliaAnd then you have to throw the whole jar away?
Marco: Exactly. At least that's what we do. There are also some people who just skim the top, but we throw everything away because you can't see where the mold spores have penetrated. It can be anywhere. That's why we dispose of it completely. We definitely recommend that.But I say, if you want to make sure you use organic vegetables, pay attention to hygiene, watch the temperatures and the ferments, then it will be successful.
JuliaOne more question has arisen for me: Is itimportantwhether you chop or grate it by hand or could you also do it in a ... For example, I now have a Thermomix. Could I also grate the carrots in it?
Marco: You can do that too, yes.
Maria: If it's the right size, definitely. You can also do it like this.
JuliaWhat kind of mistakes can you make? What are the mistakes that you perhaps see most often?
Marco: Well, good mistakes ... It's often written on the internet that I constantlyleave airon the ferment.It's like this:If you use a fermentation system- there are different ones - the idea behind it is to create an anaerobic environment. In other words, a low-oxygen environment to get the fermentation going in the first place. In other words, I want the oxygen to go out of my jar and no new oxygen to come in.There are often rumors,andthey areabsolutely wrong, that you should always open the jar ...
Maria: To "aerate", so to speak.
Marco: Yes, toventilate or open. So, I kind of take the lid off to release the pressure. There is pressure in the jar because carbon dioxide is produced in it, a gas. And it wants to escape somehow. This creates pressure and the lids are often simply opened, pressure escapes and then closed again. But this bringsin newoxygen. So please, don't do that.
Just use a fermentation system. It comes with a valve. The pressure is automatically released without new oxygen coming in. So, this is a really important hack that worksreally well and where there really is false information on the net. You have to say that. It can also work. But as a rule - and we have a huge community, in the five-digit range - it often doesn't work. So that's recommendation no. 1.
Then really useorganic vegetables. The reason for this is simple: if you use conventional vegetables that have been sprayed, they have a chemical coating and this is not natural. As a result, the risk of mold is extremely high. This means that fermentation doesn't get going in the first place.Then use really natural products. As I said,sea salt without anti-caking agents, without e-substances ...
Maria: Or rock salt.
Marco: Exactly, rock salt is also recommended. Pay attention to hygiene.But also make sure that everything is well rinsed, sothatthere areno detergent residues. So again, no chemicals, so that we really have 100 percent naturalness.And then thetemperatureat which I ferment itis very, very important.It must not be too cold or too warm. It's like this:Once I've chopped the vegetables and put them in the fermentation jar, I leave them at room temperature for about a week. Room temperature is around 18 to 22 degrees.Or 20 to 22 degrees,preferably a little warmer than too cold. And after a week, we always recommend putting it in the cellar. The classic cellars, the ones that are really natural and a bit older, usually have a temperature of between 16 and 18 degrees, and that's perfect.
Never put them in the fridge, because that stops the fermentation abruptly and I no longer ferment the product.This is also something that happens quite often,that many people then put the ferment in the fridge very quickly and too quickly.
JuliaSo you only put it in the fridge when you've finished it and actually stop it on purpose.
Marco: Exactly. So when you say:"Wow, bomb! This tastes perfect, great. It's 100 percent ready forme", then you can put it in the fridge. Yes.
Julia: Well, I would have a problem with the cellar here in Mallorca ...
Marco: Yes, but it's better to be too warm than too cold. In Korea,kimchi is also fermented. They don't have a cool 16 to 18 degrees either. It's really more important to be too warm than too cold.Because if it's too cold,the whole thing won't get going in the first place.
JuliaOkay. Maria said at the beginning that you can also use an ironing jar. How does that workwith the pressure? So it doesn't get too high? Do you actually allow it to happen?
Marco: Exactly. You leave it closed. The swing-top jar is made of glass and there's a rubber in between. And the gas can escape through this rubber.
Maria: Yes. And it really does. It works. I've often heard and readthat you shouldn 'tclose the jar sotightly or not close it at all.If you don't close the lid at all, it's slightly askew. So no, reallyclose it properly and then the pressure can come out.
JuliaPerfect. Is it possible to put fruit in as well?I once read a recipe somewhere with peaches in it. Does that really work?
Maria: Yes, definitely. There's definitely sugar in the fruit. It also ferments with it. We'realwaysquite honest: wejust don't like the taste of fruit thatmuch.You also have to be aware that the proportion of alcoholic fermentation is or can be higher with the fruit. Simplyconscious be aware, right? Depending on what you want, or what you don't want.
Marco: But we have published recipes before, an apple and beet relish that wasa huge hit with our community. We simply put it online because of the demand. There's also a YouTube video. As I said, we're not reallyfans of combiningfruit with fermented vegetables, but it seems to have gone down really well.
How can I incorporate fermented vegetables into my diet?
Julia: It's like this now: We want to eat fermented vegetables to provide us with good bacteria, to support our intestinal flora, to support digestion. How much of the fermented vegetables should I eat so that I can really benefit from thesebenefits benefits?
Maria: It really makes sense to eat two, three, four meals a day -every day! two, three, four tablespoons a day- really every day! That would definitely be better thaneating half a glass or a whole glass once a week.That'sstill better than not eating at all! But if you were really conscious about it, it would be good if you could manage two to four tablespoons a day.
Some people gratesome fresh vegetablesafterwardsand take them outside or to work orsomewhere elseas a meal and then eat them straight from their jar. It's great fast food in that respect, of course.
Marco: Regularity is important. It's better to eat less regularly than too muchonce and then nothing at all.
JuliaDo you have any tips on what it goes particularly well with or how you can combine it?
Maria: Yes, we really like it as a vegetable side dish to a normal hot dish, for example. Then maybe you don't cook extra vegetables with it, but like sauerkraut in the past. That was also a vegetable side dish with - I don't know - roast sausages or roasts or something. The only difference is that you might not make it warm, but simply eat it cold. You still have a warm dish. It also goes wonderfully with potatoes.
Marco: Or Jacket potatoes.It's also great as a substitute ... We used to eat jacket potatoes with linseed oil and quark. For those who are vegan now, vegetables can of course also be added.
Maria: Really, really great.
Marco: Or on bread, that tastes really good too.
Maria: Yes, some things work really well on bread. Also very tasty.Otherwise, in any salad you prepare. It's just now the time when people are starting to eat more saladagain. Maybe with things from the garden or something. It goes well everywhere.
Marco: Or really pure. Pure is always good. You can take it anywhere. Put it in a small jar and whether you're at work, maybe going hiking or out and about. You'll always have your superfood with you.
JuliaYes, it also tastes very refreshing. It also goes wellwith Chinese fried ricefor example. Or with scrambled eggs, if you're not vegan, it goes very well there too. So I think you just have to give it a try.Many people don't always dare to try it, and then I always say:"Just try it and you'll find the combination that works for you."
Maria: A lot depends on that: Which vegetables do I have available right now? And what spices are there that might go well with them. It always depends on that, of course.
What is fermented food actually good for?
Julia: Can you talk about the healthbenefits a bit more than I have just said? So it supports digestion. What else would you say are the reasonsreasons for eating fermented vegetables?
Maria: Exactly, as you say, it supports digestionin several ways.Se have had good experiences with both diarrhea and constipation. We have also heard from a customer with acute complaints. So, the had stomach pains, then ate the fermented vegetables and they went away. Itdoesn't have tohave such an immediate effect on everyone. There are also more sensitive people who react directly to it and some less so. I just want to share the experiences we have already heard.
One ofour customers was a little girl who had an inflamed oesophagus and could hardly eat anything because of it.With the fermented vegetables, they slowly felt their way back and after a week or two her oesophagus was healed and she was able to eat normally again.
Marco: It definitely strengthens the immune system and builds up the intestinal flora thanks to the many bacteria that areadded to the intestine.Especially after antibiotic therapy, which may of coursebe necessaryin certain situations.Then I can reallyrebuildthe intestinal flora, which is really almost dead or non-existentafter taking such medication. That's great in any case.
And Our personal experience and the feedback from many participants in our community is thatfood cravings are extremely reduced. So I mean these cravings for bad food, right? So really less potato chips or chocolate, we know that ourselves when we lie on the couch and eat a lot of it. Well,that really decreases when I eat fermented vegetables regularly, even a little. There are those cravings where you say:"Wow, I can't do this. I have to eat something now."
Maria: Of course, it's also much easier to digest thaneating raw, unprocessed vegetables.Some people say they can't eat raw kohlrabi or raw peppers or something like that. If it's fermented, it's much easier to digest and doesn't"bother" you so much after eating. That's what I'm going to say now, just to give it a to paraphrase a little.
JuliaYes, it's good that you mention this, because I often tell my customers not to eat raw food if they have intestinal problems. For many people, it's also extremely good to give up raw food from time to time. But that doesn't include fermented vegetables in the sense that they are fermented, i.e. already pre-split and therefore easier to digest.
Marco: Exactly, it's pre-digested, so to speak.
What if I have a histamine intolerance?
Julia: Now, one counter-argument that I get very often is: "But I have a histamine intolerance and that's why I can't eat fermented vegetables." What do you say to that?
Maria: Yes, we know a naturopath who actually used to behistamine intolerant and shebasically cured it completelythrough intestinal cleansing. So many things come from the gut that you can't necessarily say you can cure with fermented foods, but fermented foods are simply one part of many ways to get your gut back in order, to heal it again. And you can use it to fix so many things. Be it skin problems.
Butwithhistamine intolerance, it's also possible to get rid of that. If this is simply not yet in sight, for various reasons ... We also have many customers with histamine intolerance who simplytake care of their bodies and cansimply eat smaller amounts of it.That's what we recommend to everyone who asksus: try it out. Try small amounts and see how you react.
For some - and there are certainly different types -it works very well, for some less so, and for some perhaps not at all. But it's not necessarily out of the question for everyone.
JuliaOkay, great. So, as with everything. I always say nutrition is really something where you have to try things out.Thebody gives us feedback, and maybe you just have to try a learn a little,alsoto listen better to the signals of the body. Vou might want to start with small amounts and not overdo it and just see how you react.
Maria: Exactly, yes.
Julia: I have the same experience, by the way, wf you really get your bowels in order. Mou don't have to eat fermented food right from the start if you have a really bad histamine intoleranceeat fermented foods. You can you can also say: I'm going to eatI'll start by eating in a gut-friendly way and see how I can stabilize it a bit. And then afterwards ...
Vany people always think that things like histamine intolerance or other intolerances are something you have for the rest of your life. DI can really say from experience: No. A lot of things can be reversed if you start eating moremore species-appropriateto eat a more species-appropriate diet.
Maria: Yes, exactly.
Learning to ferment with the "fermentation formula"
Julia: Now it could very well be that my listeners haveand listeners have been inspired to give it a try. You have alreadysuper well but perhaps one or two people would like a little more support. You have developed a course on this - "The Fermentation Formula" - and the course can be booked right now. So, if you're listening to this - dear listener - you can now put your name on the waiting list for thecourse, which opens its doors at the end of this week,at the end of this week.
Iwould be great if you could explain a bit more about how the course works, perhaps also what you were thinking, what your aim is with the course. That would begreatif you could explain that a bit more.
Marco: Yes, thank you Julia. So, we started the course about half a year ago, developed together with our community over the past nine months.The desire arose in our community to offer something that would enable everyone to ferment successfully at home in their own kitchen. Later, of course, independently of us.
We developedit together with our community, as I said, for the first time. And now we'relaunching it for the third time - the doors have just opened again.It's turned outreallygreat. It's not a purely online course as you're used to. It's ahybrid course, so to speak.
I can briefly tell you what's involved:
Of course, we have pre-recorded videos. First of all: What is fermentation? How can you ferment successfully? Why should I ferment? With wonderful videos, with recipes on how I can ferment at home in my kitchen. But there's also something to go with it,sothat everyone has the same starting point.Everyonegets afermentation set sent to their home.In other words, a fermentation system with a jar, a weighting stone, a fermentation cap and a tamper. Everyone gets a workbook physically sent home, and there are lots of othergoodies, and at the end there is a certificate of completion.
But that's not all. This course thrives on the fact that we really ferment together. So there are joint live sessions where all participantsjoin in. Anyone who wants to can also show how they ferment at home intheir kitchen. We will ferment together. That's what the'fermentation formula'is all about, because these are always the best sessions. They always have so much energy. We alwaysreallylook forward to it.
On the one hand, it's all about us really throwing out all the hacks and information that we've learned over the years, w
Of course, due to the current situation, the feedback was:"Wow, we have more time than usual. When is this course actually coming out?" And that's why we're launching this course, because now there's no excuse. Now everyone has time and can really take part in the course and we're just really looking forward to meeting you in person.
JuliaGreat. That sounds great. What's it like if you don't live in Germany now? Do you also send to Switzerland, Austria and so on?
Marco: Of course! We do that too, of course.
JuliaGreat.In case anyone says now:"Oh no, I don't want to do that myself." You also have products that you have fermented and that you send out, right?
Products from the fermentation manufactory to order
Julia: I think people can just have a look at your website and order them straight away. Right?
Marco: That's right. Exactly. We have a fermentation factory. We produce fermented vegetables according to our own quality criteria.De started with this once and now we also offer the option of that you can also ferment at home yourself,sothat everyone can really choose what they like best.
JuliaGreat. Is there anything else at the end?that we have forgotten,that we haven't mentioned yet or that you'd just like to share with our listeners?
Maria: Yes, of course. Sure. Maybe just get started! Always this procrastination and so on ... No, really just dare to try it out. Maybe something won't work out, but don't let that discourage you straight away. We'll keep our fingers crossed and wish you every success with your insertion and lots of fun.
Julia: Thank you very much for the great conversation. Im sure that you have gained some new fans who are now also starting to ferment and will hopefully let you know that they have done so. Feel free to write to Marco and Maria when you have had your first experiences.
You also have a great community, you said. Is that a Facebook group?
Marco: Exactly. The Facebook group itself, I think we already have over 8,000 people in there in total. Our whole community on Pinterest, Instagram, Facebook, that's over 15,000 people. It's really growing extremely fast.
I'd say fermentation is really on everyone's lips right now. Probably also because of the current situation. I'm completely open and honest about that. Peoplemaysimplywant to becomemore independent of the supermarket. They want to know: What's actually in my food? I want to create my own superfood.As a result, thereis a real run at the moment, which of course makes us happy. It simply raises awareness: What is really important to me? What do I want to eat? What ingredients do I want to have in me? And above all: how can I strengthen my immune system?
Julia: GExactly. Great. Yes, you two:It's great what you do! Good luck with the course and have fun with the new group. I look forward to staying in touch.
Marco: Julia, thank you.
Maria: Yes, thank you very much!
The links to the episode are:
You can find out more about "Sour makes you happy" at:www.sauer-macht-gluecklich.de/
Sour makes you happy - apple and beet relish,video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh_biMGVDN0
Sauer macht glücklich Facebook group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/happyfermentation/
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